Chamrider Battery is an ebike battery manufacturer and electric bicycle battery factory with 12 years of experience. 

When it comes to comparing 48V and 52V eBike batteries, riders often wonder which option offers the best experience, and there are some key factors you should take into consideration commonly to ensure you select the right ebike lithium battery for your specific needs.



You may probably have done your researches , but here I’m going to listing all of them so that you are able to an make informed decisions and select a battery that aligns with your riding style, range requirements, weight preferences, and budget constraints! Let’s delve into detailed specifications to find the optimal battery for your eBike!

KEY FACTORS :
Power and Performance
Range and Endurance
Battery Weight
Component Compatibility
Availability and Cost

Power and Performance:
52V batteries generally provide higher power output compared to 48V batteries. The additional voltage can result in faster acceleration, increased torque, and improved climbing abilities. Riders seeking a more exhilarating and powerful riding experience may prefer the performance offered by a 52V battery.

Understanding Range and Endurance:
Battery capacity plays a significant role in determining the range and endurance of an eBike. While both 48V and 52V batteries can offer similar capacities, a 52V battery may provide slightly longer range due to its higher voltage. This can be advantageous for riders who frequently embark on longer rides or require extended range without the need for frequent recharging.

Battery Weight and Handling :
The weight of the battery can impact the overall weight and handling of the eBike. Generally, a 52V battery may weigh slightly more than a 48V battery due to the additional cells required to achieve the higher voltage. Riders who prioritize a lightweight eBike for easier handling, maneuverability, or transportation may prefer the lighter weight of a 48V battery.

Compatibility with Ebike Conpoment:
It's crucial to consider the compatibility of the battery voltage with the rest of the eBike components, such as the motor and controller. Some eBike systems are specifically designed for either 48V or 52V batteries, and using an incompatible voltage can lead to compatibility issues or potential damage. Riders should ensure that their chosen battery voltage aligns with the specifications of their eBike system.

Evaluating Availability and Cost:
Availability and cost can also influence the decision-making process. Generally, 48V batteries have been more prevalent in the market for a longer time and may offer a wider range of options at various price points. 52V batteries, while gaining popularity, may have a more limited selection and potentially higher prices due to their relatively newer introduction to the market.


Here are two specifications on different Chamrider voltage batteries, along with an overview of how their performance can differ: ChamRider Lithium E-Bike 48 V Big Triangle Battery VS ChamRider Lithium E-Bike 52V Big Triangle Battery





Battery Voltage: 48V
Performance: With a 48V battery, eBike may offer a balance between power and efficiency. It delivers good acceleration, decent torque for hill climbing, and a respectable top speed. The range may vary based on battery capacity and other factors, but it generally provides a reliable and versatile riding experience suitable for various terrains and riding styles.



Battery Voltage: 52V
Performance: With a 52V battery , eBike may offer a higher power output and increased performance compared to a 48V system. It delivers faster acceleration, enhanced torque for tackling steeper hills or challenging terrains, and the potential for higher top speeds.


ChamRider Battery Voltage comparison : 48V or 52V
The ChamRider Lithium battery lineup offers two distinct options: the 48V Triangle lithium battery and the 52V Triangle lithium battery. These batteries, designed specifically for eBike applications, exhibit notable differences in voltage, power output, and performance.The ChamRider 48V Triangle lithium battery operates at 48 V, providing a reliable and efficient power source. It delivers a balanced performance, offering decent acceleration, torque, and top speed suitable for various riding conditions.

On the other hand, the ChamRider 52V Triangle lithium battery operates at 52 V, bringing a higher power output to the table. This higher voltage translates to improved acceleration, increased torque, and potentially higher top speeds. Both battery options are meticulously engineered by ChamRider to ensure seamless compatibility with their eBike manager systems, guaranteeing optimal integration and performance.


Ultimately, the excellent experience with a 48V or 52V eBike battery depends on individual preferences and riding requirements. Riders seeking enhanced power, faster acceleration, and longer range may opt for a 52V battery.



By considering these additional factors, you can make a well-rounded decision when choosing between a 48V and 52V eBike battery!If you have any questions or need more information about 48V and 52V batteries, please contact our eBike experts. And if you are interested in getting a firsthand feel of our batteries? Request a sample of our 48V and 52V batteries to better understand which option suits you best!
No matter which option you choose, remember: the right battery can significantly enhance your riding experience.We looking forward to helping you find your perfect match in the vibrant world of ebike batteries!

Electric bikes have revolutionized the way we commute, explore, and experience the joy of cycling. One crucial component that significantly influences the range and duration of your electric bike rides is the battery.




Choosing the right battery size is essential for enthusiasts seeking longer adventures and extended riding times. In this enlightening blog post, we will not only explore the key factors to consider when selecting a battery size for your electric bike but also introduce you to ChamRider—an esteemed and industry-leading ebike battery supplier.

ChamRider is renowned for its exceptional commitment to quality, innovation, and performance, making it the ideal partner in helping you make an informed decision and embark on unforgettable electric bike journeys.



Battery Capacity:

The battery capacity, measured in watt-hours (Wh), determines how much energy the battery can store. For those who crave longer rides and extended adventures, a battery with a larger capacity is crucial.

ChamRider offers a diverse range of battery options with high capacities, providing you with ample power to explore further and conquer challenging terrains. With ChamRider's high-capacity batteries, you can confidently push the boundaries of your electric bike's range and embark on unforgettable journeys.



Energy Efficiency:

While battery capacity influences range, energy efficiency is equally important in maximizing the battery's potential. ChamRider's batteries are designed with a focus on energy efficiency, ensuring that you get the most out of every charge. By utilizing advanced technologies and optimizing energy consumption, ChamRider batteries minimize waste and deliver more power to your electric bike. This efficiency translates into longer rides, allowing you to explore new destinations with ease.



Reliability and Endurance:

When embarking on longer electric bike adventures, reliability and endurance are paramount. ChamRider is renowned for its commitment to quality and durability. Their batteries undergo rigorous testing to ensure they meet the highest standards. With ChamRider batteries, you can confidently tackle challenging terrains and unpredictable weather conditions, knowing that your battery will deliver the necessary power and endurance to keep you going.



Safety Features:

ChamRider's batteries prioritize safety on every ride. They incorporate advanced safety features such as overcharge protection, short-circuit protection, and thermal management systems. These features not only protect the battery but also safeguard you and your electric bike during extended rides. You can have peace of mind knowing that ChamRider batteries adhere to stringent safety standards, making them a reliable choice for your electric bike adventures.



Lightweight Design:

ChamRider's batteries are designed to be lightweight without compromising on performance. The use of high-quality materials and innovative engineering techniques results in batteries that are both powerful and lightweight. This design feature enhances the overall riding experience, making your electric bike easier to handle and maneuver during long rides.



Compatibility:

ChamRider offers a wide range of batteries that are compatible with various electric bike models and systems. Whether you have a mountain bike, a commuter bike, or a folding bike, ChamRider has battery options to suit your specific requirements. Their batteries are designed for seamless integration, ensuring a hassle-free installation process.



Selecting the optimal battery size for extended electric bike adventures requires careful consideration of factors such as battery capacity, energy efficiency, reliability, endurance, safety features, lightweight design, and compatibility.

ChamRider, a trusted ebike battery supplier, offers a comprehensive range of high-performance batteries that excel in these aspects.

Visit ChamRider's website to explore their extensive battery options and find the perfect fit for your electric bike. With ChamRider batteries, you can unleash the full potential of your electric bike and embark on thrilling, extended adventures with confidence. Choose ChamRider and experience the power of reliable, high-capacity ebike batteries designed for unforgettable journeys.

Do you want to enjoy the fun of riding an electric bicycle? You can leisurely ride around your neighborhood or take on challenging bike paths during your daily commute. To achieve this goal, your e-bike components must be in perfect working condition. To enjoy the full experience of your electric bicycle, proper maintenance of a key component, the e-bike battery, is crucial.



As an e-bike owner, charging the battery is one of your primary tasks. This is because the battery determines the enjoyment of your riding experience and the range you can travel on a single charge. If you want to keep your e-bike battery in good condition, continue reading this article.



So, how do you charge an electric bike? To charge an e-bike battery, detach the battery pack from the e-bike and ensure it is turned off. Then, connect the original charger of your electric bike to a power outlet. Plug the charger into the battery, and finally, switch it on.



While it may seem simple, charging an e-bike battery correctly requires considering a few factors. Additionally, there are methods to enhance the battery's lifespan and efficiency with just a little sustained effort.



Charging an E-Bike Battery


The charging process for most e-bike batteries can vary based on the battery itself and the manufacturer. Nevertheless, you can still follow some general guidelines that will help you make the most of your battery.



Every e-bike comes with a battery pack, which can be likened to a battery chamber. Additionally, your e-bike is equipped with a port where you can insert the charger, allowing for easy connection to the battery. The port attachment may vary depending on the manufacturer's choice. However, these ports are typically located at the back of the e-bike seat or in the middle of the e-bike.



Typically, e-bikes are supplied with chargers that have two cable-powered ports. One end connects to the cable that connects to the power source, while the other end connects to the battery. If you're a gamer, it might remind you of your Xbox One power port.



Furthermore, each e-bike charger comes with indicator lights - usually a red LED when charging and a green LED when charging is complete. So, once your e-bike battery is low, remove the battery and turn off the switch. Then, insert the battery cable, connect it to the power source, and finally, switch on the power outlet.






Considerations When Charging an E-Bike


There are few factors that can affect battery performance and e-bike range. Riding mode, terrain, tire pressure, temperature, and user weight are important factors that influence the performance of the bike. Additionally, time is also a factor to consider when discussing battery health. Over time, all batteries degrade, regardless of usage.



The question remains, how can you extend the battery's lifespan? This can be achieved by charging the e-bike battery in the correct manner and following recommended charging practices. Here are some important tips to show you how to charge an e-bike battery:



Charge New Battery Pack for 12 Hours
After purchasing a new battery pack for your e-bike, it is essential to charge it for a minimum of 12 hours. The initial long charge helps the battery establish a good state after being taken out of the packaging. Additionally, it provides sufficient current for all batteries.



It is essential to regularly charge your battery.



Most e-bikes use lithium-ion batteries. Regular use and charging can prolong the lifespan of lithium-ion batteries. In general, it is not advisable to let your device fully deplete before charging. This rule applies to e-bikes as well. In most cases, it is best not to let the e-bike battery fully drain before the next charge.



Instead, it is recommended to try and charge the battery when it is at around 30% to 60% remaining capacity. Some battery experts suggest occasionally allowing a full discharge, approximately every 25 to 35 charges. Otherwise, always follow the 30% to 60% rule. Additionally, you should ride the bike regularly. This is because most batteries require regular use. Besides the obvious physical benefits, regular bike usage also ensures that you are regularly charging the e-bike battery.



Avoid Extreme Temperatures


Always avoid extreme temperatures. We cannot stress this enough. Cool or moderate temperatures are most suitable for your e-bike battery. The feeling of each e-bike battery is the same as your feeling in high temperatures.



Therefore, to prolong the lifespan of your e-bike battery, avoid riding in hot sunlight, especially during charging. During each charge, the battery should be placed in an environment that is not too cold or too hot. It is best to maintain a temperature of around 60°F to 70°F during charging.



Pay Attention During Charging


When charging the e-bike battery, avoid being far away from the charging point. Do not leave the e-bike battery connected to the charger for an extended period—consider 13 hours or more. Always avoid overcharging the battery. Overcharging the battery will decrease its efficiency faster.



Overcharging the bike battery can cause the battery to self-discharge to around 95% of its capacity. Then, the charger will attempt to charge it to 100% and continue charging. The slight discharge and continuous charging during this period can weaken the charging cycle and lead to battery aging. You can use reminders or timers on your mobile device to remind you to unplug the battery from the power outlet.


Do Not Store the Battery Empty


Sometimes, you may need to store an e-bike battery when going on a long trip. Perhaps your destination is farther than the range of your e-bike, or maybe you don't want to ride the bike for such a long distance. There's nothing wrong with that. However, avoid storing the battery at 0% state. Always try to store the battery at around 40% to 60% of its total capacity.



Note the Time Required to Reach Full Charge


The charging duration for each e-bike battery depends solely on the battery size or capacity. However, most e-bike batteries take approximately two (2) to six (6) hours to reach a full charge. Additionally, always keep in mind the charging rate of the e-bike battery.



For a charging speed of 15 miles per hour and a range of 30 miles, a battery will take up to 2 hours to charge fully. However, a battery with a range of 100 miles will require 4 hours to charge fully at a charging speed of 25 miles per hour.



Where to Charge the Battery


Since most e-bikes can be charged through a power outlet, you can charge the battery anywhere with an available power outlet. As long as there is enough space to accommodate the bike during charging, you're good to go. Additionally, ensure that your charging area is free from water and fire hazards.



Safety is Important!



Charging While Pedaling


Some e-bikes have a feature that allows you to charge the battery while riding. This is done when you apply the brakes, and it can extend the battery life by about 10%. However, this may make your e-bike more challenging to ride and also increase the cost of the e-bike.



If you're unsure about the duration your e-bike will last during a long trip, consider purchasing an additional battery for a better experience. This will help alleviate concerns about running out of battery power while riding.



Finally, before charging your e-bike battery, there are some additional measures you should always follow. Firstly, you should always avoid charging leaking or damaged batteries. Additionally, make sure to use the charger specified for the battery. Most batteries have a built-in management system that prevents overcharging, overvoltage, and overcurrent. This system works perfectly only when you use the designated charger to charge the e-bike battery.



Can I charge the battery to 100%?


For most e-bikes, lithium-ion batteries are the standard configuration. Lithium-ion batteries are good, and there's no harm in unplugging the battery early. Charging the bike battery to 100% also doesn't cause any harm. Let's quickly understand how e-bike charging works. When your e-bike battery is charging, it goes through two (2) cycles of charging. The first cycle is a rapid charge that replenishes about 90% of the charge capacity. So, unplugging the battery at this point means you've given the battery the best part of a "charge."



However, not all e-bikes have built-in indicators. On one hand, newer e-bikes use display screen systems to indicate battery level. On the other hand, older e-bikes may not have battery level indicators. If you're using an older model, there's no harm in charging the bike battery to 100%. Just be sure not to overcharge!



Can e-bike batteries be replaced?


E-bike batteries can be replaced at any time. The structure of e-bikes allows you to remove the battery for charging convenience. It's also an ideal choice for e-bike owners to have a spare battery for long trips. Additionally, if the battery becomes damaged or loses efficiency, you can replace the e-bike battery. Check out our article on choosing the best battery for your e-bike.



How to increase battery range for longer rides?


In general, there are several ways to increase the battery range of an e-bike for longer rides. The best method is to use a lower assist mode. If you pedal at a higher frequency than the battery's operating frequency, it will last longer.



Another option is to use the right gear at the right time. Higher gears make it easier for the e-bike to travel at higher speeds, while lower gears make it easier for slower speeds. So, you should try to change gears to adapt to your current road conditions. Additionally, shifting gears earlier rather than later can improve your riding experience with less power consumption.



For example, imagine approaching a stop sign and refusing to shift gears until you reach it. Accelerating back up to top speed can quickly drain your battery and may be challenging.



Furthermore, always pay attention to the power requirements of the e-bike. As speed increases, the power demand also increases significantly. This means that your battery will deplete faster when riding at high speeds. On the other hand, riding at lower speeds will help extend the battery range of your e-bike. Choosing lower gears and lower assist modes is a good way to prevent draining the battery quickly during high-speed rides.



What is the lifespan of an e-bike battery?


In general, most e-bike batteries can sustain up to 500 full charge cycles before they start to lose their effectiveness. This number is not a strict limit. Some batteries can last up to 1,200 full charge cycles. However, for pedal-assist e-bikes, depending on your riding style and battery capacity, you can expect to ride approximately 30,000 miles before the battery starts to deplete.



Additionally, most e-bike manufacturers offer a 2-year warranty for each user. The cost of replacing an e-bike battery can range from $500 to $800, depending on the shape and capacity of the battery pack.



What is the cost of charging an e-bike battery?



The cost of charging an e-bike battery depends on the electricity rate in your area and the battery capacity. Assuming you are in an area with an electricity rate of $0.12 per kilowatt-hour and you have a 10 amp-hour battery for your e-bike, the cost of charging the battery would be approximately $0.002 per mile, which is very inexpensive.






How to maintain an e-bike battery?


To maintain and keep the battery in good condition, it is best to store it in a cool place. A temperature range of approximately 32-104°F (0-40°C) is ideal for proper storage. Most e-bike owners prefer to store the battery in a garage as it can get too hot there. Instead, it is better to store it in a cool place with average temperature.



Additionally, it's important to handle the battery with care and avoid it coming into contact with water or other liquids. While e-bikes are waterproof, it's still important to take precautions before riding in the rain. Equally important is always using the charger provided by the manufacturer and not any other charger. Using chargers other than those specifically designed for the battery can potentially damage the battery or shorten its lifespan.



Charging the e-bike battery is the only way to use it, so make sure to instill safety and recommended practices into your charging habits. This is the only way to ensure the durability of your e-bike battery. Stay safe!

The speed at which the electric bike system disconnects and your riding style are crucial for battery performance. Almost all major bicycle manufacturers now offer a range of road and off-road electric bikes.

From cargo commuting e-bikes to sleek carbon fiber electric road bikes that are almost indistinguishable from non-motorized bicycles, electric bikes have evolved from novelty to practicality in the cycling world.



Anyone who has invested in battery-powered consumer electronics can attest to the noticeable decline in battery performance over time. Therefore, for anyone considering purchasing an electric bike and existing owners alike, e-bike battery maintenance is an important consideration.



The best electric bikes

The best electric road bikes

The best commuting electric bikes



With the rapid pace of development, some potential electric bike owners are concerned that the premium they pay today will be frustratingly outdated in a few months. This is not entirely accurate and largely depends on your usage.



Take the electric bike motor, for example. Mid-drive motors come in two rated output powers: 250W and 500W. More powerful motors may be enticing, but they also consume more battery energy. For regular commuting, a 500W motor is almost entirely unnecessary.



As more research and development resources are poured into the electric bike market, mid-drive motors may become more efficient or lighter, but riders don't necessarily need greater output power. The key is finding the right balance between power and efficiency based on your specific riding needs.



What you should consider is battery technology and how the usage of an electric bike affects battery life.





Learning from the lessons of other digital devices


Battery suppliers in the electric bike market have chosen lithium-ion as the standardized chemistry. This battery composition has been validated in consumer electronics and automotive industries. Therefore, there is a wealth of user data available regarding the health of lithium-ion batteries.



The motor of your electric bike will last a long time, with fewer moving parts prone to damage or heavy maintenance. Where performance may decline over time is in the battery pack.





Most smartphone or laptop users have experienced battery degradation over time. However, the loss of energy capacity can be mitigated. The most crucial impact on the health of electric bike batteries is the frequency of charging from very low energy levels.



If you frequently drain the battery to almost empty in most rides, the likelihood of significant degradation is very real. Ideally, you want to minimize the time spent at zero energy consumption and at 100% energy consumption.



Most electric bikes come with three-mode configurations, roughly divided into thirds. The lowest pedal-assist mode uses one-third of the available motor power, the middle setting uses two-thirds, and the third setting provides full power.

By default, using the eco mode, you should complete your electric bike rides with the maximum battery capacity possible.



Use it sparingly as needed


Limiting the depth of discharge is the most important way to maintain the health of electric bike batteries.



While we all occasionally enjoy maximum motor assistance, it is quite unnecessary, especially considering the lower limits imposed on electric bike systems in the EU/UK, which are set at 25 km/h.


The only time you should use the full power of the electric bike is when conquering the steepest slopes during challenging climbs.



By judiciously using only the battery capacity you need and not excessively consuming all the extra watts, you will enjoy better and more stable battery health over time.



The electric bike motor also prefers a consistent cadence, preferably in the range of around 80 RPM. To achieve the best match between your input and the motor's output, it is better to ride with higher cadence and lower gears.



If you frequently ride your electric bike and fully deplete the battery, you may consider models with larger battery capacity. Alternatively, you can choose plug-in range extenders to balance the overall load of the electric bike's energy system.







Rethinking the "free" speed


Different countries and regions have different regulations regarding the speed and specifications of electric bikes.



In the United States, the maximum power limit for electric bike motors goes up to 750W and disengages assistance at speeds of 32 km/h. Europe and the UK have adopted stricter definitions, with a power output limit of 250W for electric bikes used on roads, disengaging electric assistance at 25 km/h.



As a result, electric bike riders in the EU and the UK generally experience less battery degradation due to the configuration of their bikes. By using more conservative pedal-assist software to manage their energy usage, electric bikes in the EU/UK theoretically operate more efficiently than similar products in the US market.



Commuting and active transportation electric bikes were never designed to be speed machines. The value of these pedal-assist bikes lies in alleviating the challenges of long-distance commuting along hilly routes or reducing the pain of riding against the wind on the way back home in the afternoon.



Electric bikes are most useful when enhancing the rider's power on steep climbs or against headwinds. In both cases, speed is low. Active commuters don't need to climb steep hills at 40 km/h.



For electric bike enthusiasts in the EU and the UK, the more conservative assist setting of 7 km/h for mid-drive motors can provide an excellent ownership experience and contribute to healthier long-term battery health.

The first step in converting a regular bicycle into an electric bicycle is to install the battery. The installation process is relatively simple, but it is important to thoroughly understand the process before deciding where to place the battery.






How to Install an Electric Bicycle Battery


Electric bicycle batteries can be installed on the bicycle in various ways. Most electric bicycles come with pre-installed batteries and mounting features. However, if you want to change the installation orientation for convenience or install the battery on a new bicycle, you will need to follow some simple instructions.



What You Need:
Battery case

Heat sink

Rivet nuts

Bolts, screws, and nuts

Wires and connectors

Wrenches (regular, Allen, rivet)

Screwdriver



Installing the Battery on a Brand New Bicycle:



You can purchase a complete kit with a display, motor, throttle, and speed sensor online to convert your regular bicycle into an electric bicycle.



Step 1: Remove Old Components



Remove the chain, bottom bracket, pedals, mechanical lines, and brakes. Converting your regular bicycle into an electric bicycle means removing almost everything from the old bicycle.



Step 2: Install the Electric Bicycle System



Mount the motor on the bottom bracket and lubricate it. Install the display, brakes, and throttle on the frame.



Step 3: Initialize Connections



Connect the display, throttle, brakes, and motor to the controller. Additionally, connect the speed sensor to the rear wheel.



Step 4: Choose Mounting Options



Mount your front rack or rear rack or triangle pack onto the bicycle.

Or

Drill a few holes, insert rivet nuts, and tighten them. You can now install the sliding mounting options onto the bicycle frame.



Step 5: Install the Battery



Mount the battery onto the mounting option, connect the battery, and it's done.



Step 6: Connect the Battery to the Bicycle



The overall wiring of the electric bicycle may seem complex, but connecting the battery is the simplest part so far.



You simply need to place the battery in the installation position and plug the connector into the controller.



While the connection between the bicycle and the battery may be straightforward, the wiring connection to the controller can be quite complex. For more information, you can refer to the instructions.



Different Mounting Options for Changing the Battery






Various DIY Battery Mounting Options


Rear and Front Rack Mounting:

The most common mounting option for a DIY battery on an electric bicycle is the rear rack option. Almost all bicycles are rear-wheel-drive (rear tire moves first), which is helpful for bearing heavy loads at the back.



Front frame battery mounting brackets may not be as popular as rear frame options, but they are undoubtedly a convenient choice for installing a DIY battery.



Pack (Triangle and Top Tube) Mount:

Using a triangle pack for mounting a DIY battery will be the simplest and sensible decision. The pack will be placed in the middle, which is perfect for achieving optimal weight distribution on the bicycle. Additionally, you don't have to waste time searching for wrenches or screwdrivers every time you need to remove the battery—taking out the pack is simple and hassle-free.



Top tube packs for mounting DIY batteries may not be as common, but they are also easy to install and detach on the bicycle frame.



Dolphin Case and Water Bottle Holder:


Both dolphin cases and DIY battery water bottle mounts utilize the bicycle frame's water bottle cage.



Larger batteries may not fit in these, so you may need to replace the water bottle cage with a larger one.



The advantages of these two mounting options are ideal weight distribution and ease of detachment.



Safety Precautions When Using the Battery



When you are using the power source, it is essential to take the strictest safety precautions.






How Do I Secure My Electric Bike Battery


Ebike batteries are quite expensive and finding a proper replacement is also quite time-consuming. Here are some tips, following them will surely help you secure your electric bike battery.









Conclusion


Having proper weight distribution of your ebike depends on where you are mounting the battery. There is more than one way to mount a battery and putting the battery inside a bag or in the water bottle case is the easiest one.



You need to have a brief Idea about how to mount an ebike battery, whether you want to turn a regular bike into an ebike or just want to change the mounting position of the battery. It’s easy and simple.